Why are people leaving church? WATCH THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to extremetheology.com for this.
I will say it again, we NEED TO WAKE UP!!!!

Death of the MegaChurch?

According to USA Today most mega churches are just barely squeeking by. They aren't really growing. Unbelievers are still not visiting and these churches keep shuffling people from other churches. When you consider the million dollar budgets some of these places have, one wonders: where does it all go? It's what I and many others have been saying for years: church is for believers. When you make it about the seeker (unbeliever) you'll do what you have to in order to get attention. Even more so, it's not even about us, it's about glorifying God. I find it hard to see how that can happen when pastors are doing everything from the ridiculous to the near blasphemous at church on Sunday morning. One quote stands out

"The megachurch story is not really about growth, it's about shifting allegiances. People want to feel good about who they already are," says Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at Indiana University in Indianapolis. "If church is too challenging or not entertaining, they'll move on."

Sadly, it's not about entertaining, and it's supposed to be challenging. We have to have our lives challenged by God's word. Look at how many times Jesus upset people with his words. Not very seeker sensitive. It goes on to say:

"You can create a church that's big, but is still not transforming people. Without transformation, the Christian message is not advanced," says Ed Stetzer, head of Lifeway Research in Nashville, which did the Outreach study.

As someone pointed elsewhere (Aldous Huxley in Brave New World I think) we will be ruled by our pleasures. When the church buys into the entertainment model, pleasure has gone to church. Any wonder there have been a slew of churches reaching those "controversial" sex sermons?

I highly recommend this great post by my friend SoiSauce (Jonathan Chan) called: Why I'm not Evangelical. He gets to the heart of what I'm trying to say.

Will we learn? I don't know but, here are a few responses from the article. Some are funny, but the first one catches the spirit that has captured many American churches.

Stats show the average worshiper only gives 2.3% of their income!
Stats show that 80-90% of Mega church attenders come from other churches.
However, mega churches do a great job of meeting felt needs geared toward a culture that seeks to get what it wants, feel good help now!
It's cheap entertainment as long as you don't let them suck 10% tithing out of you.
Music. Lots of good looking women in nice clothes.
You get to sit next to a pretty gal who wouldn't give you a glance on the street; and more than likely the minister will tell everybody to hug each other.....thatsa very nice.

If the preacher tells a good yarn...so much the better.
Best actors in town by far. You almost believe that they believe, but you know better.

Walmart could go into the God business and start their own religion. You could shop on Sunday morning and attend church at the same time. They could have a sale on "spirituality." Everything else is for sale in this country. Only $2.98 for $5 worth of spirituality. They could hire Rev. Osteen to be a greeter. He could stand at the door and flash his saccharine smile as people enter the church/store.

I went to a mega-church in atlanta with a friend a few years back and it was aweful. It was managed like a concert or stage act and it did not feel like church. And considering they gave me a tithing envelope (they accepted Visa) on my way in, passed a plate, and asked each of us for our envelopes on the way out I was pretty happy to be back at my smaller church with the bigger faith. Religion is not about treating people like cattle. Not everyone wants a Wal-Mart meets rock concert version of religion.

Yes, Jesus taught not to judge, but he also warned about false prophets.
A sermon is not a Christian sermon if it excludes what Jesus did on the cross.
Gospel is first a bad news before it is a good news. You can just pick and choose what you want to hear.

I hope this will be the death of the Mega Church. How about just building a small church and invest the other 50 million dollars on the less fortunate?

More church foolishiness

No stranger to controversy, TD Jakes has made some interesting statements in the past. His neard denial of the Trinity being the most major. We can also add his interesting approach to money, but this statememnt made here is utterly un-called for and poor biblical exegesis at worst. To make a text of scripture mean more than what it says is going too far. This is especially worse when he is trying to use it to pander to a certain branch of the church that would endorse this kind of behavior. Sad to say, the thousands who read his books, watch his movies, and listen to his sermons will overlook it because he's been "used by God". I mean look at his church, his car, his house. Surely he's been blessed by God. Surely he's right. And that ladies and gentlemen is what breaks my heart. People are willing to look at pragmatic success and use it as a measure for truth, rather than take out their Bible and study to see if what he says is so. Sorry Mr. Jakes, but someone with more insight has this to say about Ruth and Naomi. The Net Bible (footnote 50) states

tn Heb “do not urge me to abandon you to turn back from after you.” Most English versions, following the lead of the KJV, use “leave” here. The use of עזב (“abandon”) reflects Ruth’s perspective. To return to Moab would be to abandon Naomi and to leave her even more vulnerable than she already is.

Someting to think about



As for this guy, al I can say is I went to his web-site and this is how he describes his CD "Tokin the Ghost"

In this collaboration between Benjamin Dunn (Joy Revolution) and John Crowder (Sons of Thunder), prepare to experience the Intoxicating Glory of God in a package that whacks you up before you hit the play button. This electronica "party CD" is geared to trance you out in the bliss of the Most High God, as you experience the ecstatic pleasures of the Holy Spirit. This is not a "soaking CD" but a "toking CD." This is a no-holds barred, headlong dive into "joy unspeakable and full of Glory"! Prepare to encounter the "High Priest of the Bliss that was to be ..." (Heb. 9:11). This is not a CD for the faint of heart, nor for the religious (unless you want deliverance!). Jesus is our true addiction.

To that I can only say:

2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Paul it would seem, didn't get a kick out of parading his experiences. Less so than cashing in on them. You'll be hearing more of what I have to say about John Crowder and the New Mystics (his ministry). The fact that he includes his little girl in on this stupidity is utterly despicable.

Todd Bentley and Evangelical Gullibiblity

Are Evangelicals gullible? This next clip of Patricia King makes me think that sometimes they can be.Or at least it gives unbelievers the impression that we are.



It's because of things like that, that people have seriously taken a look at us and have thought we are crazy, backwards and just plain gullible. Saddest of all, it brings shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Ed Stetzer has written a post on Evangelical gullibility. In the wake of the Todd Bentley scandal and his "weird" practices" I think he takes the right approach. It's not just Charismatics and Pentecostals who have made some grave errors in their judgment (not all, as he points to an Assemblies of God response to the Lakeland fiasco), it's the whole Evangelical movement. He writes

Yet, when I see things like this, it is just hard not to ask: does anyone still have a Bible and some common sense?

Let me add: I do not think this is a Pentecostal issue. That is why the title is, "Evangelical Gullibility."

In other words, all kinds of Christians are forwarding emails about the FCC's phony plan to ban religious broadcasting, signing up to have emails sent to the loved ones after the rapture, and watching Christian television for its theological depth. For that matter, I have just as many odd people come up to me with "something they discovered in the Bible that no one has ever noticed" after I speak at a Baptist, Wesleyan, of non-denominational meeting as I do when I speak at a Pentecostal one. Furthermore, many Pentecostals and Charismatics HAVE expressed concern about this movement-- including some when I visit the Assemblies of God office a couple of weeks ago.

I just have to wonder with Grady if Christians really are just gullible.

True revival is generally a messy affair. On the one hand abuses often accompany genuine works of God, and on the other hand much of what is called revival is nothing more than fanaticism. Courage is required to ask tough questions and do so with with grace and kindness, patience is necessary to wait and see if what is called revival bears lasting fruit, and theological discernment is critical for the church when it comes to awakenings and revival.

I appreciate that he doesn't just hit out on a specific group. And it's more than I told you so. I have seen many discernment ministries respond this way and I believe this is a first step in answering their accusations. I will have more to say about this later. For now, what can we do to foster discernment and growth amidst a sea of confusion and gullibility?

1. READ YOUR BIBLE!

I can't tell you how much my eyes were opened after I read the NT in one week about 9 years ago. I saw that a lot of what was going on at my church was just plain tradition, and the flesh. I say read the letters of Paul where he had to deal with the Churches' errors (and they had them at the time....severe errors!). It protected me from further error. I would highly recommend that you learn to interpret your Bible as well. Verse abuse is real. Many pastors out there are not workmen who are unashamed. They are marketers who are shameless. They don't know how to handle scripture well (as they are commanded to in 1 Timothy). That is usually the source of much error. I recommend Knowing Scripture by R.C Sproul and How to Read the Bible for All its worth by Fee and Stuart. Tim Challies book on Discernment would be very helpful as well.

2. Go to a Good church
If you suspect that your church is into shady things, leave! Vote with your feet as someone I know puts it. You are obligated to find fellowship in a place where the Bible will be taught, the gospel preached and discples trained. If you really want to you can talk to your leadership and ask them why everyone has to jump up and do the funky chicken or speak in tongues, but you may not get far. Remember: there have been bad churches since the time of the New Testament, you are not alone and you can have hope and faith again.

3. Pray
For those out there making bad decisions and for your own self. We must be on guard. Remember, bad theological error can kill. Ask those who have loved ones that died with David Koresh or with Jim Jones.

4. Develop a Sense of Humor
You have to learn to laugh again. Humor really does help. You can look back, and when you can laugh, you know you're doing well. More so, it helps with the healing process. here's an example



I hope this helps many of you. I pray you will be able to find yourselves strong in the Lord. Not in someone on TV, or someone with a big budget or a big church. Feel free to leave comments.

TV Preachers are funny!!!!

Something a few British guys put together. It's sad that these non-believers have more wisdom and insight (and humor!) than most Christians.

Todd Bentley Update: Sad Sad News....

As I said Todd Bentley separated from his wife. Fresh Fires Ministries reports more:

We wish to acknowledge, however, that since our last statement from the Fresh Fire Board of Directors, we have discovered new information revealing that Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff. In light of this new information and in consultation with his leaders and advisors, Todd Bentley has agreed to step down from his position on the Board of Directors and to refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life.

Sad indeed. However, J. Lee Grady of Charisma Magazine raises a few good questions in his recent editorial. He writes:

I’m sad. I’m disappointed. And I’m angry. Here are few of my many, many questions about this fiasco:

Why did so many people flock to Lakeland from around the world to rally behind an evangelist who had serious credibility issues from the beginning?

To put it bluntly, we’re just plain gullible.

From the first week of the Lakeland revival, many discerning Christians raised questions about Bentley’s beliefs and practices. They felt uneasy when he said he talked to an angel in his hotel room. They sensed something amiss when he wore a T-shirt with a skeleton on it. They wondered why a man of God would cover himself with tattoos. They were horrified when they heard him describe how he tackled a man and knocked his tooth out during prayer.

As a former Pentecostal, I have to admit that I was suckered years ago into saying, and doing lots of things that were plain dumb. I can attest to the fact that we took pride in knowing that we were "spirit-filled" and didn't fuss around with deep doctrine or with being discerning. But the book of Proverbs 27:12 says

The prudent sees danger and hides himself,but the simple go on and suffer for it.

Grady continues:

"But among those who jumped on the Lakeland bandwagon, discernment was discouraged. They were expected to swallow and follow. The message was clear: “This is God. Don’t question.” So before we could all say, “Sheeka Boomba” (as Bentley often prayed from his pulpit), many people went home, prayed for people and shoved them to the floor with reckless abandon, Bentley-style."

My question would be,"Did Charisma or anyone in the Charismatic world seriously raise questions about Bentley before this fiasco happened?" I'm sure THIS


raises a few questions for people. I might also add, that the few people who were raising questions were people like Christian Research Network and ministries like slice of laodicea and the Pyromaniacs. Where were the wise Charismatic Pastors who should have been more discerning?

More to the point, will we ever grow up? Grady continues:

Many of us would rather watch a noisy demonstration of miracles, signs and wonders than have a quiet Bible study. Yet we are faced today with the sad reality that our untempered zeal is a sign of immaturity. Our adolescent craving for the wild and crazy makes us do stupid things. It’s way past time for us to grow up.

A prominent Pentecostal evangelist called me this week after Bentley’s news hit the fan. He said to me: “I’m now convinced that a large segment of the charismatic church will follow the anti-Christ when he shows up because they have no discernment.” Ouch. Hopefully we’ll learn our lesson this time and apply the necessary caution when an imposter shows up."

Ouch indeed. We MUST become a more discerning people. The only way that will happen is by reading our BIBLES! I may be charismatic and reformed, but I'm not gullible. Neither should you. In the next few days I will be exploring discernment and how you can spot danger in your church.

On a final note, I want you all to understand that I make a distinction between the circus sideshow that is Lakeland and a genuine move of the Spirit. I do believe that the gifts are in effect today, and the Holy Spirit can manifest in amazing ways. Kind of like this (watch it all, it's very moving):

Todd Bentley sepearates from wife

Confirmed on Fresh Fires Website and in Charisma Magazine's page as well. It's not a time for rejoicing. It's a time for prayer. Prayer for the many people who attend the Lakeland "outpouring" and will be hurt by the news. Prayer for the Bentley's who may be trying to work it out. Prayer for that movement that God will do some serious shifting in how they do things. I'm not convinced that a lot of those people aren't saved, but I just find it VERY hard to think that this and this or even THIS is from God.
I'm sure more will come out in the next couple of days.

Deja mi pueblo Leer!

LMPR: Spanish Edition.


You may not understand it, but watch it. It's your typical health and wealth rah-rah sermon in Spanish. There is some English at the end. The movie clip that starts at 1:03 speaks for itself. Compare that to the rah-rah sermon the guy preaches after that. The final section with the Kill Bill theme is a clip of a secular motivational conference. Not much difference from the Christian message played before it. Yep folks, the health and wealth message has infected the Hispanic church. I hope I can somehow help. I like this guys take. He's basically saying it seems like God ran out of ideas so he is borrowing from the world. Poor God! He needs to accept the wisdom of the world to succeed. This is truly different from the picture of God found in 1 Corinthians 1:20 and 21.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

What!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?

OK class, what is wrong (and sacrilegious) about this? Extra points if you can watch through the whole thing. I think I have now seen it all at church. If this is what it has come to for these guys in Lakeland and in the church in general, I give up. *sigh*....... Sad to say many will actually defend this. (note: I am charismatic reformed and have no problem with praise songs, but using music alone to get people into a stir is psychological manipulation and not a move of the Spirit. Trust me, I've seen people jump and dance to worship God...this is something else-GHOST!)



And for context here's the original song by Dead or Alive-extra points:is that a guy or a girl?

Very, Very, Very Interesting.......

Ahhh youth.....3:23 is very interesting.....3:55 is interesting as well




So here's a response I found....here's how people are fed.....

Todd Bentley event....very sad.....

While there, the good people of Reformed Evangelist preached outside a Todd Bentley event and you can see how the people reacted. He even put up a sound bite of one of the people who came up to talk to him.

Here's a pic of some of the people's responses


Here's a few excerpts:
One-by-one, the hecklers left the line to engage me and the others on my team. Some were reasonable and kind. Others, like the “event staff” person in my face, in the above photo, ranted and raved like so many of the “unbelievers” we face every day on the streets.

The hecklers for my second open-air were every bit as angry as the first group, and as angry as any group of “unbelievers” I have ever faced.

The angry man in the above photo rebuked me as if he were attempting to cast a demon from me. Imagine: a professing Christian thinking that a man preaching the Law and the Gospel is demon-possessed.

Also listen to the audio clip he posted along with his article.

More Todd Bently and Jim Carrey!

see this video and can't help but think of


THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


We laugh. But notice that in the first video the gentleman pulls out his bible to see where we could ever find an instance of anyone doing such things to heal someone. Yep, I dare say the reason people go to these places is because they have not opened their Bible to get informed on what real revival is and when and how healing does or doesn't happen. I lay the blame on Pastors who have not done their duty to be discerning. I also blame these guys that stalk on people's hopes that maybe they can get out of their pain and suffering. My prayers go out to them.

William Dembski on Todd Bently and faith healing

One of my more thoughtful readers (and I appreciate those) asked me about the fact there are other faiths that have faith healers. Does this mean that we don't pray for healing at church anymore? And I have to agree that she makes a point. I think we should be careful. However, it is because we are called to call on God and God alone to perform mighty deeds, that we must be careful when someone doing (and saying) some pretty wacky stuff (like Mr. Bentley does HERE and HERE) in the name of Christ. It's called discernment. Keep in mind in that in the Old Testament we are warned against being false witnesses, Jesus warns of false Christs, Paul warns of false brothers and flase gospels and the book of Revelation warns of false signs wonders and false prophets. That is the danger we are warned to avoid. Evidence of this is in the following story from Intelligent Design proponent and mathematician William Dembski. He went to Florida and took his autistic son. His insights are not surprising, and yet saddening. Here's what he had to say:

FORT WORTH, Texas (BP)--Todd Bentley's healing ministry has gained national attention. His daily meetings for the past three months in Lakeland, Fla., have attracted hundreds of thousands from all over the world. The press has begun to question Bentley's legitimacy -- Is his financial accounting above board? Are miracles really happening? I want to raise some more personal concerns.

On July 3, my wife, three children and I attended Bentley's "impartation service" in Denton, Texas, north of Dallas. Why? We have twin 7-year-old boys, one of whom is autistic (largely nonverbal, still not fully toilet trained, serious developmental delays). Friends urged that we attend the meeting for his miraculous healing.

Call us stubborn, but my wife and I are unimpressed with doctors who see our son's condition as hopeless. We believe that God still heals and that His means of healing include conventional medicine, alternative medicine, prayer, fasting, love and, yes, miracles. In any case, we haven't given up on our son's recovery (we still remember the day when he was developmentally on track). So if God wanted to use Todd Bentley, we were open to it.

As faith healers go, Bentley is unconventional. Exhibiting black shirt, baggy jeans, tattoos and piercings, he prefers grunge to Gucci. But his appearance wasn't a problem for my wife or me. God in the Bible used many unconventional people. The problem for us was the manipulation, hype and agenda that seemed to pervade the meeting.

It was a 130-mile drive for my family to get to the meeting. When we called the organizers, they urged us to get there by 3 p.m. even though the meeting didn't start till 7 p.m. The venue (a basketball arena) seated 8,500 people, yet the organizers told us to expect 14,000 people to show up. So the only way to be sure of getting a seat was to get there early.

We therefore piled the kids into the minivan early afternoon, arriving around 4:30. At 6:30, after sitting for two hours, the arena was about three-quarters full. One of the organizers then announced that traffic was backed up for miles around Denton and that several thousand were trying to get into the meeting, most of whom would have to be turned away. This was sheer hype. A significant block of seats (at least 20 percent) were cordoned off and never used throughout the whole night. We could have arrived anytime and still gotten seats. (emphasis mine)

At 7, Keith Miller (the chief organizer, www.sfwm.org) started things off. After prompting the audience to perform ritualistic acts of worship (stand up, raise your hands, say after me ...), he passed the baton to a young woman singer and her backup band. The sound system was terrible -- sounds were loud and distorted. The music was repetitive in the extreme. In almost two hours of this "music ministry," only a handful of songs were sung, and many of them seemed to consist of only one or two phrases. (emphasis mine)

Finally, around 9 p.m. Bentley began to speak. He devoted much of his message to the visions he has received and the miracles he claims have happened in his ministry. Then, almost as an afterthought, he spent a few minutes preaching from the Bible (John 5). In fact, he admitted that he was having us open the Bible simply so that it couldn't be said that he didn't preach from the Bible. So much for reverencing the Scriptures. (ditto)

Nowhere in Bentley's message did I see an emphasis on the love and compassion of God -- that healing is an expression of God's goodness and care for humanity. Rather, the emphasis throughout was on power -- the power to heal and be healed.

Bentley told stories of remarkable healings. In fact, he claims that in his ministry 30 people have now been raised from the dead. Are these stories credible? A common pattern in his accounts of healing was an absence of specificity. Bentley claims that one man, unembalmed, had been dead for 48 hours and was in a coffin. When the family gathered around at a funeral home, the man knocked from inside the coffin to be let out.

But what are the specifics? Who was this man? What's his name? Where's the death certificate? And why not parade the man at Bentley's meetings? If I am ever raised from the dead through anyone's ministry, you can be sure I'll put in a guest appearance. Bentley claims that he is having a team investigate healings performed under his ministry and will soon go public with the evidence. I look forward to seeing it.

After preaching, Bentley took the offering. During the offering he asked "How much anointing do you want to receive?" Thus he linked the blessing we should receive with the amount of money we gave.

After the offering, Bentley said a general prayer for mass healing. People who thought they were healed then came forward. But I saw no obvious or dramatic evidence of healing. After the general prayer for mass healing, Bentley indicated that he would pray for the severest cases.

At this point, a friend who was with us urged that she and my wife take our son with autism down for prayer (I stayed with our other son and daughter). Over an hour later my son with autism was still not able to get to the main floor for prayer. Ushers twice prevented that from happening. They noted that he was not in a wheelchair. Wheelchair cases clearly had priority -- presumably they provided better opportunities for the cameras, which filmed everything. They also invoked the fire marshals, who, they claimed, prohibited too many people on the floor of the arena. But earlier in the service, during the worship time, they had packed the floor with people singing and whooping it up.

After midnight we were told that it would be an hour and a half before our son could get prayer. At that point, we got up and left. Yet the story doesn't end there. When we got to the minivan, our other son remembered that he had left his Bible in the arena. When my wife went back to retrieve it, everybody, including Bentley, had suddenly cleared out. Staying an hour and a half would not have mattered.

Our son was refused prayer twice because he didn't look the part, and he was told to wait still longer for a prayer that would never have been offered. And even those who looked the part seemed to look no better after Bentley's prayer -- the exodus from the arena of people bound in wheelchairs was poignant.

My son's situation was not unique -- a man with bone cancer and his wife traveled a long distance, were likewise refused prayer, and left in tears. People with needs were shortchanged. It seemed that power, prestige and money (in that order) were dominating motives behind the meeting. Minimal time was given to healing, though plenty was devoted to assaulting our senses with blaring insipid music and even to Bentley promoting and selling his own products (books and CDs). (emphasis mine)

Neither my wife nor I regret going. It was an education. Our kids are resilient. But the ride home raised a question. We found ourselves avoiding talking about the event until the children fell asleep. Then, as they drifted off in the early morning, we talked in hushed tones about how easily religion can be abused, in this case to exploit our family. What do we tell our children? I'm still working on that one.
--30--
William A. Dembski is research professor of philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Todd bently exposed!!!

Thanks to H8n S8n for his cool post at Biblical Thought. Go check it out. Here's a clip he put up to help you think about Todd Bently and the so-called Florida revival.